Eurobench.com

Flatlander 5 februari 2020 16:44

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quote:
Rarezot schreef op 4 februari 2020 20:56:
[...]

FL

I think it will be extremely difficult to make a cartridge without the Phillips IP (not saying it can't be done or they can't find a loophole in the patents or something like that). I don't know the details in the current patents, but you will need a way to pump liquids in the cartridge (and choose which liquid at which time), heat up a small part of the cartridge without heating too much of the rest. And it all has to fit in a small package and you have to find a way to increase shelf life. I'm not a bio-chemical engineer, but the temperature parameters, the liquid quantities and all that are really strict.
So I would say that if you have a dedicated team, you might be able to redesign it. If there is a major flaw in the patents (which I doubt), and they are able to get their hands on some cartridges of Biocartis, it will be 'fast'. I would estimate 2-3 years to find the flaw, do some major redesigning just to get some working test cartridges and a test system (that's with a flaw in the patent). Then you have to set up production, convince people that your product is better/easier/cheaper, get the necessary approvals,...

Another way they might circumvent the Phillips IP is making the cartridges specific to the test (physically). The cartridge of Biocartis is really versatile, you have some interchangeable parts, but the core of the cartridge is always the same. That way it's 'easy' to develop different tests and the Idylla-system doesn't have to change except for some software updates. So maybe they can physically alter the cartridge so much and lose this versatility. But that would make it hard to sell...

Let's just say that, unless some Bio-engineers find a new better way, I think it's impossible (or way too expensive) to get aroud the Phillips IP. The cartridges for Idylla are too compact and versatile, and you will create too many disadvantages for yourself by altering the design enough to avoid IP-conflicts.

Rarezot

Rarezot

Thanks Your statements closely track what Renate DeGrave has emailed me about the strength of the IP portfolio and licensing. It may not be too far out there, that Cepheid recognized how their cartridge based PCR IVD system could have been deployed to oncology but they may have been disrupted by the IP issues.

I try to keep an eye on emerging technologies such as Silicone based nanofluidic processors such as that touted by Rudi Powels and MiDiagnostics. Also, Illumina has researched porous bead technology as a cheaper way to enter the Point of Care market. From what I've read about these new technologies is that they are not robust enough to support the informatics required for oncology POC use. To date these types of emerging technologies appear to be focused on rapid diagnosis of infectious disease. So currently, I'm not seeing a new unforeseen technology swooping in to claim a large portion of the POC oncology MDx market.

Ok, enough from the department of "only the paranoid survive".

Thanks for your insights.
FL

Flatlander 5 februari 2020 17:01

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quote:
Gijpie schreef op 5 februari 2020 06:02:
FL I do not fully agree that you can stay under the radar in a multi billion market which is rising at whopping numbers. The real advantage is as mentioned by rarezot the timeframe to copy . Therefore I think it was realy clever of Biocartis to team up with big partners, a bit in the sense of ‘ if you can’t beat them join them ‘ . Anybody can say whatever they wan’t but as a small company they did already make an amazing growth path with clever disition making .

Gijpie
By flying under the radar, I mean that I'm only aware of one competitor that has publicly stated they were going to try to develop a similar system. Multiple large players are trying to approach the POC market by scaling down their NGS platforms and trying to lower the costs of these offerings. I'm not certain that approach can be successful since their costs are about 10 times higher and the effort on the front end preparing the sample and on the back end interpreting the MDx results are still much more intensive than on Idylla. The idea that tweaking the existing NGS systems is sufficient would seem to ignore some of the advantages of Idylla.

I feel that Idylla transition from RUO and increased geographical acceptance of Idylla would definitely increase the attention of the larger MDx companies on BCART as a competitor.

FL

Gijpie 5 februari 2020 18:04

1

FL I am trying to participate the 27 of march on the Biocartis company visit . I have to arrange with my work not easy cause independent and not much free time but I think I can arrange . If you have specific questions, shoot I will try to ask them . This counts also for other forum members.

Stockbrood 5 februari 2020 19:28

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Gijpie,

We still have 5/03 coming so our list could still change a lot. But can't hurt off course to brainstorm on type of questions that can be asked. Maybe the question around IP?

Stock

[verwijderd] 5 februari 2020 19:35

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quote:
Gijpie schreef op 5 februari 2020 18:04:
FL I am trying to participate the 27 of march on the Biocartis company visit . I have to arrange with my work not easy cause independent and not much free time but I think I can arrange . If you have specific questions, shoot I will try to ask them . This counts also for other forum members.

Goed om weten Gijpie.Daar ga je veel van kunnen opsteken.Hopelijk kom je met interessante mensen in contact waaraan je hoopgevende informatie van kan bekomen.

Sheridans 5 februari 2020 20:37

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Shortsell lichtjes uitgebreid op 31/01/2020 tot 4,06% -- > Voleon +0,10

2,53%
Citadel Europe

0,82%
Highbridge Capital Management

0,71%
Voleon Capital Management

Flatlander 5 februari 2020 22:38

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quote:
Gijpie schreef op 5 februari 2020 18:04:
FL I am trying to participate the 27 of march on the Biocartis company visit . I have to arrange with my work not easy cause independent and not much free time but I think I can arrange . If you have specific questions, shoot I will try to ask them . This counts also for other forum members.

Thanks for the opportunity Gijpie

I imagine that BCARTs intent is to foster a better understanding of the technology. I'm sure the questions will only be answered by IR or senior management. A lot of the questions we hash around on this board would be framed a lot clearer if we knew the sales rates in the EU where various Idylla assays have been approved for diagnostic use. I know the answer is likely to be "it is too early to break out sales by geography". Along these lines it would be interesting to confirm the hypothesis of whether smaller labs, hospitals and clinics are receptive to adoption of Idylla as a lower cost mechanism for providing MDx services. It is probably early to ask this question ahead of the CDx partner drug approvals. Once the MDx results are tied closely to a prescription, there may be more of an incentive for using the system.

It would be interesting to understand the regulatory approval process for the gene fusion assay. If the individual gene assays have received marking does the fusion panel have an expedited pathway to demonstrating equivalence of the combined test.

Many of the technical references suggest that the failure rate for NGS and Sanger sequencing may be upwards of 33%. This is often attributed to tumor heterogeneity, insufficient and/or degraded DNA. How is Idylla able to reduce the failure rate to such an extent. Is this reduced failure rate feature likely to extend to all tumor MDx drivers.

I'll think about additional questions.

Thanks

[verwijderd] 6 februari 2020 08:55

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quote:
joe123 schreef op 5 februari 2020 19:35:
[...]
Goed om weten Gijpie.Daar ga je veel van kunnen opsteken.Hopelijk kom je met interessante mensen in contact waaraan je hoopgevende informatie van kan bekomen.

Binnen 4 weken, op donderdag 5 maart, hebben we misschien geen vragen meer maar positieve antwoorden.

[verwijderd] 6 februari 2020 10:09

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heel kalmpjes vandaag zou ik zeggen ,toch goede voorruitzichten

[verwijderd] 6 februari 2020 10:13

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denk als leek dat ik hier nog mooie posten mag zien ,waarvoor dank aan iedereen

[verwijderd] 6 februari 2020 11:02

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zou iedereen ze vasthouden, kan je da ergens vinden

Stockbrood 6 februari 2020 11:35

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Nat, er zullen altijd mensen zijn die met een deel van hun aandelen mee surfen op de highs en lows van de beurs. Werd volgens mij zelfs al gesuggereerd op dit forum.

Als je een 20 tal % aangekocht hebt 1 week geleden, dan kan je na de recente stijging die 20% weer verkopen. Daarmee komt je LT strategie niet in het gedrang en kun je nog wat extra verdienen.

Hier op het forum zal iedereen ze waarschijnlijk vast houden, tenminste al tot 5/03

Stock

[verwijderd] 6 februari 2020 11:42

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thanks voor info Stockbrood

Flatlander 6 februari 2020 15:00

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"Along these lines it would be interesting to confirm the hypothesis of whether smaller labs, hospitals and clinics are receptive to adoption of Idylla as a lower cost mechanism for providing MDx services. It is probably early to ask this question ahead of the CDx partner drug approvals. Once the MDx results are tied closely to a prescription, there may be more of an incentive for using the system."

I think it is worth explaining this statement in a little more depth. Genomic Target drugs in the US are generally quite expensive. I can see a scenario where the Pharma companies that BCART has CDx relationships with picking up all or part of the cost to run an assay in order to acquire a new script. They can quickly recoup this cost by enrolling new patients/users. Obviously, if the CDx test is covered by insurance there is little reason for the pharma company paying up outside of maybe expediting the assay and treatment. The same may go for monitoring of the treatment effectiveness.

Again none of this will play out before Idylla is approved for diagnostic use.

FL

brightlight 6 februari 2020 17:02

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Weet iemand of de verhuurde consoles mee opgenomen zijn in de cijfers van de verkochte consoles?

Does anybody know if the consoles rented are included in the console sales figures (or not)?
BL

Ik bedoel niet de boekhoudkundige cijfers maar de verkoops volumes
I don't mean the accounting figures but the sales volume figures

[verwijderd] 6 februari 2020 17:39

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quote:
brightlight schreef op 6 februari 2020 17:02:
Weet iemand of de verhuurde consoles mee opgenomen zijn in de cijfers van de verkochte consoles?

Does anybody know if the consoles rented are included in the console sales figures (or not)?
BL

Ik bedoel niet de boekhoudkundige cijfers maar de verkoops volumes
I don't mean the accounting figures but the sales volume figures

BL,

If you look at the annual report of 2018, they talk about an 'installed base of over 970 systems' (p6), this includes both sales and rentals.
If you look on p115, you can see the revenue split between sales and rental. I can't find a specified sales volume...
investors.biocartis.com/sites/default...

They always talk about installing new systems for their goals (so both rental and sales)

Rarezot

[verwijderd] 6 februari 2020 17:54

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mooi op de 6 gebleven ben een tevreden mens

brightlight 6 februari 2020 18:01

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quote:
nat1966 schreef op 6 februari 2020 17:54:
mooi op de 6 gebleven ben een tevreden mens

Hebt ge nu terug aangekocht? Ik dacht dat je alles verkocht had?
BL

brightlight 6 februari 2020 18:13

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quote:
Rarezot schreef op 6 februari 2020 17:39:
[...]

BL,

If you look at the annual report of 2018, they talk about an 'installed base of over 970 systems' (p6), this includes both sales and rentals.
If you look on p115, you can see the revenue split between sales and rental. I can't find a specified sales volume...
investors.biocartis.com/sites/default...

They always talk about installing new systems for their goals (so both rental and sales)

Rarezot

THX Rarezot
Sounds logical. Did you notice that there is actually a positive side to rentals, namely that those rentals will continue to contribute to revenue in years to come. Also, this means that the real "avg. sales-price/console" number is actually higher than the number we get by dividing "consoles installed" by "revenue from consoles" sold.
BL

Stockbrood 6 februari 2020 18:15

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quote:
Stockbrood schreef op 5 februari 2020 16:15:
quote alias=Rarezot id=12099546 date=202002051502]
[...]

Tiens, op 30jan had je gezegd dat je eruit ging stappen ;) Leuk om te horen dat je ze toch hebt gehouden (wel grappig dat je dan altijd zegt 'ik hoop het voor jullie')
Maar als je 6.64 hebt, is het niet echt te hoog hoor. gewoon geduld hebben en niet te veel fixeren op de dagelijkse koerswisselingen, dat heeft toch geen nut.

Rarezot
[/quote]

Nat, We hopen op het forum alvast dat je wat rustiger zal zijn eenmaal we de 6.64 gepasseerd zijn en mss ervoor ook al. Want de meesten geloven in een veel hogere koers dan 6.64. maar nogmaals, met geduld... Panikeer dus niet bij elke daling, en feest niet bij elke stijging. Denk aan een cijfer binnen 12 maanden en hou je daaraan.

Een 100% stijging op jaarbasis kan zicht voordoen als een dagelijkse stijging van 0.3% of een eenmalige stijging van 100% en 364 dagen stilstand. Beiden hebben hetzelfde resultaat. Een goede belegger verliest de LT nooit uit het oog

Succes met het beheersen van je gevoel. :)

Stock

2000 stukjes aan 6.64.

Met het wisselend koersverloop van vandaag moet ik zeggen dat Nat zich wonderlijk onder controle heeft gehouden! Goed bezig!

Nu gewoon nog beseffen dat de uitslag vandaag eigenlijk irrelevant is ( maar dat is zeker niet makkelijk ) in de aanloop naar 5/03. De koers gaat vol mee met het sentiment, er zijn ( momenteel ) helemaal geen triggers.

Stock

Vertraagd	22 sep 2023
Koers	0,290
Verschil	0,000 (0,00%)
Hoog	0,000
Laag	0,000
Volume	0
Volume gemiddeld	0
Volume gisteren	112.228

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